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Patrick
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Wedge231
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defska17
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 Posted: 1/28/2003, 12:58 am Post subject: |
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I definitely agree with you guys there. Since the closer position is such a relatively new position in baseball few, if any, closers have gotten the recognition that they are due as far as recognition in the HoF goes. I believe that that will change with the recent emergence of the elite closer as such an important position, but hopefully players like Goose will get their due.
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Patrick
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| Posted: 1/28/2003, 10:48 am Post subject: |
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http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SV_career.shtml
Gossage is 13th all-time with 310. Lee Smith is first with 478 and he isn't even in the Hall. So, Smith has to get in first, I imagine. Trevor Hoffman has more saves than Gossage, so Gossage doesn't seem to have the stats going for him, I guess. Hoffman should be a hall of famer, as well, but if Smith can't get in, and Hoffman finishes with less saves than Smith, how good will his chances be? Yet, there must be some respect for "changing a position." I view Hoffman has a version of Gossage.
Gossage is also 7th in appearances. Tough to make a case based on stats, I guess. But, there are other factors as far as I am concerned. He had 10 out of 11 seasons (including 9 in a row) where he was Top 6 in saves or better.
Does the postseason come into play? Then Mariano Rivera has got to be a hall of famer if he reaches 300 saves.
I think it all comes into play.
We are talking about two pitchers who pitched for the Padres here as well. 
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defska17
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| Posted: 1/29/2003, 1:03 am Post subject: |
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hehe yeah, which is probably why i am such a big fan of Goose in the Hall . I do agree that no Smith in the Hall = no Goose in the Hall, but I think that they should both be there.
The problem with the closer position is that there is no threshold of saves that they can cross that would "guarantee" them a spot in the Hall. A contact hitter that reaches 3,000 hits will be there, a power hitter with 500 homers will be in the hall, a pitcher with 300 wins will be there...but since the closer position is so new, noone knows where that threshold will/should be. 300? 400? Who knows. I do believe that once that threshold is determined, everyone above that line not already given the honor in the Hall will eventually get voted in.
Postseason play always matters because the postseason is where legends are born. And I will be the first to admit that Mo is without a doubt the most prolific post-season closer ever. Now, playing for the Yankees, he has had way more chances than most will ever have, and I honestly feel that that weakens his chances only slightly. If he retired today, I do not think he makes the Hall simply because he hasn't cracked the top 20 on a list that really has only existed for a couple decades. If he cracks 300, maybe 350, then he will probably have a plaque in Cooperstown in a few years.
I, personally, think that Trevor is unique cause he did it all with one team, and he holds or shares such a large number of records. His style of dominance has done what even Tony Gwynn couldn't do: give San Diego some respect as a baseball town. I am obviously biased, but I think he would be a first ballot HoFer even if he retired tomorrow.
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Patrick
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| Posted: 1/29/2003, 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Threshold is a good point. Tough to establish one.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SV_career.shtml
If you say 400, only two people have that and neither are in the hall. If you say 300, you have a ton of guys not in. I think that with RPs, it has to depend on many things. IPs, ERA, Appearances, Post Season performances, length of dominance, etc. However, I'd say 400 saves is a reasonable "automatic" plateau to set. John Franco though.
Yankees stuff is mostly garbage. If Mo retires right now, I don't think he is an HOFer either. However, he is one of the most dominating postseason pitchers ever and that counts for something. Once he reaches 300, I believe he should be there no question. Mo also did it with one team. I suppose it was all with the greatest franchise in professional sports and that's bad. Doing it with one team is easier than doing it with the many teams like Smith did, in my opinion. Changes of scenary, teammates, etc. make it tough to stay on track.
I do think Hoffman is an HOFer, but I do not think if he retired tomorrow he would be first ballot just because Smith is not in. He's got 126 less saves than Smith.
I've been trying to find the vote totals for this years voting, but I couldn't, I would be suprised if Smith got more than 40%, with him needing like 75% I think. So, it looks kind of bleak right now. 
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Wedge231
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Patrick
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defska17
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| Posted: 1/30/2003, 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Franco is a tough one. When you look at how consistent he has been - for 18 years - he definitely deserves consideration. Lead the league in saves 3 times, won 2 Rolaids Relief Awards. I think longevity is one of the most underrated "statistics" in sports. If you've been around for 18 years, you must be good.
Here is that list you were looking for:
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hof%5Fweekend/2003/election.htm
Smith got 42.34% of the votes, Goose 42.14%. (I am still apalled that Alan Trammell is not there, but that is a whole 'nother discussion).
I blame it on the fact that there really hasn't been a HoFer that has made it in solely on relief pitching - yet. Someone needs to be the first, and the voters do not want to give that honor away lightly.
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Patrick
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But, it was cool.
